Aleksei Ostrovsky, head of the Duma’s Committee for CIS Affairs has recommended that the Russian Government create diplomatic missions at the territories of three unrecognized republics – Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Trans-Dneister (Pridnestrovie).
According to Interfax, the document, which has been prepared for discussion and further confirmation in the Duma, recommends that Russia work to “achieve representatives’ participation of Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Pridnestrovie in all international organizations and forums, where their interests are discussed and touched.”
Also it was recommended that Russia should “resist firmly any attempts of external pressure – political, economical or military – concerning these three republics” and that the Russian Parliament suggest to the Russian Federation government that it“maintain existing forms of peacekeeping operations to settle conflicts around Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Pridnestrovie based on mutual conventions”.
According to the report:
“Nowadays the situation in the zone of Georgia-Abkhazia and Georgia-Ossetia conflicts becomes more and more complicated. Politics realized by Tbilisi is extravagant, unpredictable and sometimes destructive. Georgia is trying to break existing algorithims of conflict settlement and compromise the Russian peacekeepers’ mission. This gives a reason to Abkhazians and Ossetians to believe that Georgian administration chooses military option”.
The report’s authors note that mandate of peacekeeping forces, which are operating in the territory of the conflicts between Georgia and Abkhazia, Georgia and Ossetia, only allows them to “split the rivals, maintain regime of security and stop the fire”. To change this mandate would require the agreement of all sides. But neither Abkhazia, nor South Osetia have given their agreement, because they are afraid the departure of Russian peacekeepers would lead to destabilization of the situation in the region.
The authors of the project believe that the precedent set in Kosovo, wich recently declared its independence will have consequences for other “frozen conflicts.” If these conflicts remain “frozen,” this will be provoke new stage of confrontation between conflict sides. And this confrontation will be negative for the population.
Nugzar Ashuba, the head of Parliament of Abkhazia, speaking in the Duma, asked Russia to recognize independence of this self-proclaimed republic as soon as possible. He told Duma members that:
“The Russian Federation now (after the Kosovo incident) has enough reasons to declare the independence of Abkhazia all over the world. By doing this Russia will establish its international weight.”
Ashuba also mentioned that the Georgian government must be interested in recognition new status of republic, because Abkhazia has proved that it was able to survive as an independent entity.
“We think that if Georgia recognizes independence of Abkhazia, its government will solve many other socio-economical problems and the Georgian people will be free from waiting for war every moment.”
The rest of the Duma’s discussion was closed to journalists, but according to one source, some Duma deputies consider that Russia has to support these self-proclaimed republics, because they will never be part of Georgia again.
It is the time to remember words of President Putin during the visit of Angela Merkel last week. He reminded us that case of Kosovo would have a lot of consequences for the world.
Now we have the beginning. Who is next?
About Andy Young
Randy
Thank you for your langthy post
Documentation of this illegal immigration would be welcome. I’ve heard many people claim very large figures for it without referring to primary source materials.
I doubt you will find any direct/documented evidence. There have been references to illegal immigration reported in the press, including western press going bsack to the 1980′s. Illegal immigrants would not raise their hands and say ‘I am one’ unless the government decides to give an amnesty.
It is reported that Australia has some 50,000 illegal immigrants. America would have mmuch more. The real number who knows? As for Kosovo, given the population size and the high birth rates it would not require high numbers to distort the social structure.
The KLA only appeared after the mid-1990s, when Rugova’s strategy of a parallel state failed to produce dividends. Consequently, it’s irrelevant to a discussion of Albania-Kosovo migration trends before the mid-1990s.
The text was in response to your comment that Serbia/Milosevic imposed a repressive regime in Kosovo. Hence my response. Kosovo became repressive at around the time the KLA emerged. Before that, things were indeed tight, but that was because Kosovo’s politicians vetoed many policies in Serbia (Kosovo has represendtation in Serbia’s parliament) stifling economic progress. Serbs responded by suspending autonomy and impsing greater dem,ands on Albanians to protect minority right of Serbs and other ethnic groups. There is ample evidence of Albanians persecuting minorities long before Milosevic came to power. I am sure you would be aware of them.
By the present day, approximately 25 percent of the total population, or over 35 percent of the labor force, has emigrated.
That is a big proportion.
The country has approximately 900,000 emigrants, now residing mainly in Greece (600,000),
Explains Greece’s concern, particularly because of Albanians sights on Epirus. The large number of Albanian emigrants would be a weapon.
I simply can’t find any evidence of any significant Albanian migration to Kosovo in the 20th century.
I will do some arithmetic. But, seeing Albanians had a disproportionately higher birth rate, then it would also confirm that the structural mix would have been more evenly balanced between Serbs and Albanians by about the start of WW2. Save for calamaties such as wars or epidemics e.g. John Maynard Keynes reported in his book on the consequences of the peace that during WW1, Serbia lost more than 50% of its male population aged 18-65, or around one third of its total population. Thaty would distort the social structure even in Kosovo.
In light of these incomes differences, migration from Albania to Yugoslavia would only be expected if there was a lax border regime. There wasn’t;
Except for a brief period when Tito was courting Enver Hoxa to join the Yugoslav Fedaration. Need to dig deeper on this. Not enough information in English is available.
Kosovo’s unemployment was never less than in the double digits from at least the 1960s.
Not easy to establish unemployment rates for Kosovo or for Yugoslavia. The government quoted workforce in absolute numbers, but I could not find unemployment figures. I might get more information next week.
Where would Albanian migrants to Kosovo get jobs?
That may not have been the mindset if the objective was secession. Strength in numbers.
Albania did see a sharp population decline after the end of the Communist regime and the beginning of emigration; Kosovo may see the same process in a few years.
The high birth rate was unsustainable in Albania and now in Kosovo. I agree, Kosovo can only export cheap labour.
I provided some information in the links I cited in my previous post, and I cited some information in links in this post.
I got the source information. I am at an aiport at present, but will analyse in next couple of days.
low-level interpersonal hostilities on the ground coupled with bad political movements (Albanian separatist militias on the one hand, stupid Macedonian nationalists on the other).
It was a widely known fact in Macedonia that after WW2, Macedonians disarmed, but the Albanians did not. During WW2, Albanians sided with the fascists, Macedonians with the partisans. Atrocities were commited. Many families lost husbands and sons figthing to liberate and to create a Macedonian state. Memories remain.
“Albanian aspirations”? Let’s please not bring up the chimera of a Greater Albania that’s profoundly unpopular on the ground and doomed by ALbanian-Kosovar tensions in the bargain.
I am not as optimistic as you are. In 1998, the US congressman Di Guardi (who has some Albanian connections, by birth or marriage) had a website that showed a map of Greater Albania.
For all that it’s used, “Greater Albania” is not much more meaningful today ss “Greater Germany,” certainly much less so than “Greater Serbia.”
To you and I perhaps, but not to Albanians. Search Di Guardi on the net and look up sopme of his speeches addressing Albanian diaspora during his fund-raisers in New York. They refer to Albanians as a great civilisation. Now to my ears, that is just platitude, but to the Albanisn, closed by Hoxa for decades it is their mantra. At around 1997, a teenage boy in Tirana, spoke with pride to an Irish nurse there to select boys in need of prosthitic surgery abroad, about how Albania is feeding the world!! They teach them young. And they believe their superiority. I met a couple of young Albanian girls 5 years ago, the first thing they said to me ‘Isn’t the Albanian flag beautiful?”
A 2002 shooting of two policemen and 2003 bomb attacks suspected to be committed by Albanian groups don’t point to such a big conspiracy.
Are you kidding? They are merely snippets. They were not isolated incidents. Others took place much earlier, but no citations are readily available on the net.
More to the point, the 2001 Macedonian conflict was triggered by, among other things, the notable underrepresented of ethnic Albanians in the Macedonian public sphere.
How can they be reprsented if they chose to not integrate? They want parallel institutions, education, health, police force etc. Imagine the work place in which an Albanian and a Macedonia work together. Each would require an interpreter just to say ‘ I need a report’, as is now the case in the parliament. Not to mention all documents being written in both languages etc. Such waste of resources. I suppose the alternative is the Swiss model, they agree to speak a different language e.g. English or German. Albanians would not take to that.
Instead they established an all Albanian university in Tetovo, so they can be educated in Albanian. Of what value would that be in a Macedonian company? The rector’s office had a map of Greater Albania on the wall above his desk. When a EU commission visited to assess the curiculm to establish whether it has sufficient rigour for the qualifications to be recognised elsewhere in Europe, he could not provide anything of value. Their conclusion was that the unversity was a recruiting ground for the KLA and NOT an institution of higher learning.
It was hardly a case of Albanians picking on poor Macedonians!
It was. Macedonians did not blow up court houses, or execute Albanians. There was no systematic move to drive Albanians out of their homes. The KLA and support its received from abroad enboldend them and radicalised much of the population.
Just because I don’t bragg about my employment status or income doesn’t mean I not talking to people in the oil or gas industry.
No, it doesn’t. But what you say about the oil and gas industry strongly suggests that you don’t.
I know what you will say before even asking you.
That’s easy to say now that I’ve told you, but you intially said that my response would “inevitably” be a certain one, yet it turned out to be one quite different. Perhaps you’d be better off just reading what I write (or not reading what I write) as opposed to pretending to know what I’ll write before it is written?
Do I really have to quote old Sean again ?
Yes. Please do. Then I might have the faintest idea what you are on about.
Come on Tim, let’s bring it to an end before it really starts.
When I write “I know what you will say before even asking you” I try to indicate that (IMHO) your answers are predictable. It all boils down to what Sean has already pointed out … that in the course of any conversation with you your counterpart will hear that you know everything, the other person knows nothing and that it is very likely to hear quite a few insults form you. But what the heck, I don’t care. Btw … I’ve linked to Sean’s statement already. No need to do it again.
Just because my views and oppinions are different from yours, they “don’t suggest” anything besides being different from yours. Just because your views are different from mine, they do not represent the view of the entire oil and gas industry. Why don’t you just admit that your view is nothing but your very personal view, and not the universal and undisputable truth ? Then it might become interesting again to debate with you.
”This is comical.
The Great Iraq Swindle
How Bush Allowed an Army of For-Profit Contractors to Invade the U.S. Treasury , –From Issue 1034 ”
Yeah Sir I its comical, but its a pity that its also totally irrelevant. The fact that missapropriation of funds has occurred does not in any way prove the US went to war for economic reasons or to please some companies. Any big project -the Olympics, for an example-will have sums of money vanish, be stolen or misused -just as Montreal or Salt Lake City. That doesnt mean the Olympics take place just so money can be stolen, does it?
”Australia was involved in the invasion of Iraq in 2003, and has about 1,500 military personnel still deployed in the region.
There are no immediate plans to bring them home.”
Funny, that, because if you look here:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/03/29/2202407.htm?section=justin
You’ll notice that they are indeed being brought home – doesnt sound very oil-hungry to me. And notice also the use of a link to decent news source, namely the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, rather than to zmag or antiwar or some other nutty nest of people patently disinterested in simple logic.
”Ger O’Brien
Sorry about directing one of my responses to you, rather than to Tim.”
No need to apologise. There’s so much happening at this thread its hard to follow.
”No problem Sir Ivan and there’s no need for you to apologize, given the rude manner exhibited.”
Just because you behave like an ignoramus doesnt mean everyone else has to, does it Mike?
”Now for the deceitful replies. I don’t get paid to post informal (non-article) comments here or anywhere else. Talk about paranoia. Some people choose to misrepresent taking a righteous stand”
Thats great, but I dont believe you are making any sort of righteous stand. I believe you are a paid propogandist for the PMR goverment, which means your participation in any debate on the issue is highly questionable.
”BULLSHIT! He carries on like a troll with selective nitpicks that noticeably don’t include corerctions against a number of others when mistakes are made. ”
DB is very clearly not a troll. Your penchant for appearing just about everywhere on the internet, and getting banned in lots of places (does ukraine.com ring a bell?)indicates that perhaps you are using this word somewhat hypocritically.
Come on Tim, let’s bring it to an end before it really starts.
If I recall, it was you who initiated this discussion with me in the first place. Don’t start what you can’t finish.
When I write “I know what you will say before even asking you” I try to indicate that (IMHO) your answers are predictable.
And as I have already shown, they are not, or at least, they are different from what you predicted.
It all boils down to what Sean has already pointed out … that in the course of any conversation with you your counterpart will hear that you know everything, the other person knows nothing and that it is very likely to hear quite a few insults form you.
I know that you might find this tedious, and probably Sean does as well, but if somebody is going to make claims which are factually incorrect – for example, regarding the role of the US in the formation of NATO – then I am going to point out the error. If that somebody is going to persist with the claim which is factually incorrect, then they stand a good chance of being accused of ignorance on the subject.
Just because your views are different from mine, they do not represent the view of the entire oil and gas industry.
No. But you claimed to know the views of the entire industry, remember?
Why don’t you just admit that your view is nothing but your very personal view, and not the universal and undisputable truth ?
It appears to be you who has the problem with me holding different opinions from yours, and not vice versa.
It was you who objected to my view that exploiting the Iraqi oilfields was not a motivating factor in the US invading Iraq in 2003, and that the decision to do so was probably not arrived at having carried out an exercise similar to those used in business. Yet rather than challenge my statement in an adult manner, you attempt to smear my views by claiming any I hold are inevitable opinion for somebody in the oil and gas industry to hold, likening me to a Spandiard during the era of the Conquistadors.
Ger O’Biren
You’ll notice that they are indeed being brought home
A few months had elapsed between the time minister made the fateful statement and the announcement that Australian troops will be withdrawn from Iraq. During that time, there was an election and a change of Government.
The reason why the previous government went to war in Iraq was given by that government’s defence minister.
The new government gets the kudos for bringing them home.
srivanhoe98:
The number of illegal immigrants in different countries can’t be precisely estimated, no, but it is possible to make serious estimates, like fifty thousand illegal immigrants in Australia, say.
In the specific case of Albania, emigration after 1991 to Greece, doubtless like Albanian emigration to Italy or other countries, was precipitated by poverty. Albanian Greeks probably feature relatively strongly in this influx, which is concentrated not in Greek border areas–two-thirds in the Athens region.
Earlier, I wrote a demographic history of Kosovo. The various sources I’ve come across suggest that Kosovo was something like three-fifths Albanian by population. Tim Judah’s Kosovo: War and Revenge sums up the overall situation by noting that “much of the southern and western parts of Kosovo were thoroughly Albanian” but “that other parts had compact Serbian populations, especially in the east and from Mitrovica to the then Serbian border” (15). This proportion remained stable, the Yugoslav census of 1921 recording a population 65% Albanian and the 1948 census recording a population 68% Albanian. There might have been a slight increase over time, but not enough to alter the fact that Kosovo already had a fairly strong majority Albanian population. If there was an influx in the late 1940s, as you suggest, it didn’t change things.
None of these things make Kosovo a likely attractive for migrants from Albania. With similar or lower levels of GDP per capita, very high levels of unemployment, and an economy barely beyond the level of subsistence agriculture, Kosovo just can’t attract immigrants. National pride and expansionism has nothing to do with it: Mexicans don’t move to California because they want to annex it, they move to California because it has an economy that provides millions of jobs.
srivanhoe98:
An Albanian-American Congressman shows people a map. And? Diaspora nationalists do crazy things, like show maps of Greater Croatia, Greater Serbia, Greater Bulgaria, Greater Romania, Greater Greece … Greater Albania, unlike Greater Serbia or Greater Croatia, just hasn’t been a political project on anyone’s table since the breakup of Yugoslavia. Pragmatism accounts for much: Now that Albania has a dynamic economy, why would it want to hobble itself by taking on a population of two million people at one-third of Albania’s own GDP per capita?
More to the point, diasporas aren’t representative of the people who have actually lived in their homeland and often have ways or beliefs which have been disregarded in the homeland. My favourite example was of the St. Patrick’s Day parade in New York City that banned a GLBT float at the same time that a GLBT float featured prominently in the parade of the Irish city of Cork.
look up sopme of his speeches addressing Albanian diaspora during his fund-raisers in New York. They refer to Albanians as a great civilisation. Now to my ears, that is just platitude, but to the Albanisn, closed by Hoxa for decades it is their mantra. At around 1997, a teenage boy in Tirana, spoke with pride to an Irish nurse there to select boys in need of prosthitic surgery abroad, about how Albania is feeding the world!! They teach them young. And they believe their superiority. I met a couple of young Albanian girls 5 years ago, the first thing they said to me ‘Isn’t the Albanian flag beautiful?
Yes, patriots say silly things about the importance of their country. And? A brief survey of the world news reveals many people making similarly grandiose claims. Serbian nationalists, for instance, might say that Serbian greatness was sacrificed to Turkish slavery in order to save Christendom, and that despite Serbia’s recent travails of late (its lost wars, its mendacious enemies-turned-partners, its traitors) it will triumph over its enemies, perhaps with the help of an ever-generous Russia, and lead the world brought to its senses into a brave new future.
(I sometimes read Serbianna. Can you tell?)
How can they be reprsented if they chose to not integrate? They want parallel institutions, education, health, police force etc. Imagine the work place in which an Albanian and a Macedonia work together. Each would require an interpreter just to say ‘ I need a report’, as is now the case in the parliament. Not to mention all documents being written in both languages etc. Such waste of resources. I suppose the alternative is the Swiss model, they agree to speak a different language e.g. English or German. Albanians would not take to that.
Instead they established an all Albanian university in Tetovo, so they can be educated in Albanian. Of what value would that be in a Macedonian company? The rector’s office had a map of Greater Albania on the wall above his desk. When a EU commission visited to assess the curiculm to establish whether it has sufficient rigour for the qualifications to be recognised elsewhere in Europe, he could not provide anything of value. Their conclusion was that the unversity was a recruiting ground for the KLA and NOT an institution of higher learning.
First off, you should know that I’m speaking as a Canadian. Honestly, the existence of the University of Tetovo looks justified, a straightforward case of language rights in action.
Article 48 of the Constitution, adopted on 6 January 1992, enshrined the right to education in the languages of national minorities at both the primary and secondary levels. There is, however, no such guarantee for minority language education at the university level, despite the fact that Albanians are the dominant minority within Macedonia, constituting between 25 to 33 percent of the population (see last week’s news review for more demographic bickering).
Save the meagre concession of a small pedagogical faculty at the University of Saints Cyril and Methodius in Skopje (Shkup), the country’s two state-run universities teach only in Macedonian.
After a succession of appeals to the government failed to produce any results, the Albanian community took matters into its own hands and founded a university in Tetovo, a town in the Albanian-dominated northwest, on 15 February 1995.
The University of Tetovo is now privately funded by both the local Albanian community and a many among the expatriate community who, due to unemployment in Macedonia, spend 11 months of every year abroad working, primarily in Germany, Austria and Switzerland. The university initially comprised of five faculties: law, economics, languages, pedagogy, and the natural sciences, and staff were drawn from the long-established and well respected Albanian language University of Priština (Prishtinë).
Only two days after its opening, Macedonian police closed the university down, and the violent clashes that resulted in one killed and 15 injured. The University Rector, Dr Prof Fadil Sulejmani was imprisoned for two and a half years on charges of verbal sedition, although he was released on bail in June of the same year.”
Albanians form, at a minimum, 25% of the population of Macedonia. By comparison, Francophones form 25% of the Canadian population. In Canada, federal institutions are required by law to provide services in both official languages, in English or in French Canada. Different provinces place different emphases on bilingual depending on their demolinguistics, but provinces with a large official-language minority tend to provide a variety of services in both languages, including the domains of education and health care. School systems, interestingly enough, are run on the basis of parallel systems: Ontario’s public school system includes an English system, a French system, and a Roman Catholic system.
Admittedly, French is a language spoken by a small percentage of the North American population whatever it’s worth profile, but without providing due accomodation for Francophones Québec would have left Canada at least as early as the 1980 referendum. Macedonians would have faced the same choice with its Albanian population had outside powers not intervened.
Yes, Albanian is a minority language in Macedonia.
1. Albanian isn’t a relatively small language. Just across the border there are another five million speakers of Albanian, handily outnumbering the world’s total population of Macedonian-speakers. Albanian can serve as a language of public life, easily.
2. Should Macedonians (and Slovenes, too) have been made to reject their languages during the SFRY in favour of the national language of Serbo-Croatian? Tu quoque.
Macedonians did not blow up court houses, or execute Albanians.
Actually …
“The most serious case of police violence took place in July 1997, when special forces of the Macedonian police, some of them trained in the United States, used excessive force against violent ethnic Albanian demonstrators in the western town of Gostivar, leaving more than 200 people injured, including nine policemen, and three people dead. A parliamentary investigatory commission was formed in September 1997 but did not produce its report until March 11, 1998. It recognized that some police abuse had taken place, but provided no details and failed to identify any of the abusive policemen or their superiors. The government was obliged to respond to the recommendations of the report, which included undertaking “legal measures to establish responsibility,” by April 31, 1998. By October 1998, the government had not yet responded.
A report by the European Roma Rights Center in July documented serious police abuse against Macedonia’s Roma population. The report detailed cases of racially motivated violence against Roma by civilians and the police, as well as the judicial system’s failure to remedy these abuses. The report also criticized Macedonia’s citizenship law, by which citizenship has been denied to Roma who lived in Macedonia for most of their lives.
Ethnic Albanians continued to complain of state discrimination, particularly in state employment and education. Albanians remained underrepresented in government, especially in the police force, even in areas where they made up the majority of the local population. The highly disputed private Albanian-language university in Tetovo, which opened in 1994 against the wishes of the government, continued to operate in 1998 without government interference. But the government refused to recognize the diplomas of the first graduating class in 1998.
Four ethnic Albanian politicians, who had been arrested in 1997 for raising the Albanian state flag in front of two town halls, had their sentences reduced but not overturned in 1998, despite the fact that their original trials had been marred by due process violations. Rufi Osmani, mayor of Gostivar, had his sentence reduced from thirteen years and eight months to seven years for inciting national, racial, and religious hatred, organizing armed resistance, and disobeying an order of the constitutional court, after he raised the Albanian state flag in front of the Gostivar town hall. The mayor of Tetovo and two city council members were sentenced to lesser prison terms. Human rights groups that observed the 1997 trials raised concern about a number of due process violations, including poor access to the case files, restricted lawyer consultations, and the court’s refusal to accept witnesses on behalf of the defense.”
Problems existed, and doubtless exist, on both sides. Canada had enough problems try to get to the point that it is; I can only commend Macedonia for doing so much starting out with so little.
Randy
You are trying very hard to advocate the Albanian position…I hope you get some retainer from them. They pay well.
More to the point, diasporas aren’t representative of the people who have actually lived in their homeland and often have ways or beliefs which have been disregarded in the homeland.
You know very well it is the diaspora that helped fuel the fire. USA was the recruiting ground for many Albanians heading to Kosovo to fight. And indeed provided much of the finance and weapons. I have seen some of them at Skopje airport. They come in small numbers, parhaps four to a group, with one of them a clear leader, orders men where to stand, to keep quiet, while they are waiting to clear passport control.
Here is a snippet..
“When the war broke out in Kosovo in 1998, many of the young men volunteered to fight. Krasniqi realized he’d be more valuable raising money for the guerrilla army. Then, he started buying standard equipment at a Brooklyn Army-Navy store.
Anything you need to run a small guerrilla army, you can buy here in America,” says Krasniqi. “You have all the guns you need here to fight a war. M-16s. That’s what the U.S. soldiers carry in Iraq. All the rifles which U.S. soldiers use in every war, you can buy them in a gun store or a gun show.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/18/60minutes/main681562.shtml
The KLA levied a 10% tax on the dispora to fund the war in Kosovo. They send burly men to collect. An Albanian man I met mentioned to me that over the years he had paid out almost $2 million to ‘help Albanians’.
the existence of the University of Tetovo looks justified,
That is a separate issue. The point I was making has to do with inability on the part of Albanians to integrate, lack of a rigorous curiculum at the univesrity and the unversity being a recruiting ground for KLA.
The university initially comprised of five faculties: law, economics, languages, pedagogy, and the natural sciences, and staff were drawn from the long-established and well respected Albanian language University of Priština (Prishtinë).
Looks like the above are your words. Faculties? Mere words. Law? Which law? Macedonian? Common Law? Well respected university in Pristhina (don’t give me the Albanian spelling)? Respected by whom? Tirana? The European commission that was charged with assessing the quality of the ‘faculties’, ( you are informed so I am certian you know what I am talking about, and I do not have to cite) would not agree with you!!
As for police interveneion at the university. It was not a university (see above) but a recruiting ground for the KLA, advocating secession.
Albanians form, at a minimum, 25% of the population of Macedonia
That is the Albanian line, inflate numbers to give their cause credibility. You do the same quoting as much as 30%. It looks like you are Albanian. In 2002, they were quoting 40% in Macedonia beased on the number of cable TV subscriptions and the average number occupants per Albanian household. The media took that without question. I could add the numbers in my head and not get to the 40%. When the first census in a long while was completed I think in 2003, in which Albanians took part the proportion was 22.5%.
Yes, Albanian is a minority language in Macedonia.
Looks like you are making a statement and then disagreeing with it at 1. below.
1. Albanian isn’t a relatively small language. Just across the border there are another five million speakers of Albanian, handily outnumbering the world’s total population of Macedonian-speakers. Albanian can serve as a language of public life, easily.
Well of course it can be used in public life. In Albania. They can all go to Albania and wallow in the Albanian language like pigs in excrement. All it shows, and you are confirming it, is they cannot tolerate others. They should learn the English language. Macedonians speak it, many fluently.
2. Should Macedonians (and Slovenes, too) have been made to reject their languages during the SFRY in favour of the national language of Serbo-Croatian? Tu quoque.
Every citizen in Yugoslavia learned the offical language, Serbo/Croatian, but they also learned their native language. Albanians included. So what is wrong with Albanians speaking the officla language of the country in which they now reside?
Actually
You are Albanian!!
Ethnic Albanians continued to complain of state discrimination, particularly in state employment and education
Thy refused to speak or to be educated in the Macedonian language!! And whatever education they got in Tetovo university was useless. How can they be integrated in any official position in businss or in Government if they are not qualified or cannot speak the official language? There is positive discrimination in employing Albanians, but that can only go so far. Their mindset is that the world owes them a liking rather than trying to work for it. Those who do find their way in government abuse their position. Too many instances of Albanian officials (read minister) in Macedonia using their position to enrich themselves e.g. ministers controlling sugar imports and freight forwarding at the Macedonia border. You should know what I am talking about. In any case, are you suggesting that Macedonia’s offial language should be changed to Albanian because more people in Albania speak Albanian?
The most serious case of police violence took place in July 1997, when special forces of the Macedonian police, some of them trained in the United States, used excessive force against violent ethnic Albanian demonstrators
Macedonian secutity forces using excessing force?
10,000 Albanian citizens gathered in front of the municipal assembly building to peacefully protest against the actions of the FYROM police and to defend the Albanian flag.
If the deomosntration as peaceful there should have been no reasoin to use force. I doubt that 10,000 Albanians would be peaceful. A few thousand Albanians staged a peaceful demonstration in Kosovo not long ago. This time UNMIK forces tried to quell the disturbance…with what appeared to be disporportionate force and they killed one Albanian demonstrator.
A few Albanians staged a peaceful demonstration in Kosovo in 2004. They killed 19 Serbs, expelled 4,000 from their homes, destroyed houses and burned 150 Orthodox chruches. That timew UNMIK did not use disporportiinate force. UNMIK stood by and let it happen!!
Four ethnic Albanian politicians, who had been arrested in 1997 for raising the Albanian state flag in front of two town halls, had their sentences reduced but not overturned in 1998,
http://www.hri.org/news/balkans/koscom/1997/97-07-15.koscom.html
I am glad you brought this up. These are the very symbols and motivations towards creating Greater Albania. Great Albania is not dead as you stated previously. Not when elected government offials in Macedonia (they are afterall Macedonain citizens not citizens of Albanian) used the Albanian flag as a symbol of secession in Macedonia. I am sure you understand there are protocols and laws associated with using flags of foreign governments. Macedonia is not Albania!! No need to have the Albanian flag on Macdedonian Government buildings, unless there are official occasions that regulate that. Very common in many countries!!
As for the court hearing? If they love Albania and its flag so much, they should go back to Albania!! I would have expelled them to Albania, never to return. There are laws in place in every country about people inciting violence and racial villification, including Macedonia Indeed they are conisdred to be serious charges. Their action would stand social norms in USA.
Osmani was charged with refusal to execute the court orders, organising a resistance and instigating national, racial and religious hate, division and national intolerance”.
http://www.hri.org/news/balkans/koscom/1997/97-07-15.koscom.html
RAndy
The following artcile should clarify what I have previously stated
….. On 16 December 1997 a first bomb had gone off at the law courts in Gostivar, a town with an Albanian majority. Two weeks later, the targets were the town halls of Kumanovo and Prilep, even though these two towns are not in the Albanian-speaking area.
On 19 February 1998 there was a further escalation: in Gostivar a bomb blasted a butcher’s shop belonging to an Albanian on good terms with the Macedonian authorities. “Wherever there are Albanians, you’ll find the UÇK. It’ll attack traitors first, in Macedonia as in Kosovo”, Ibrahim Kelmendi, leader for Germany of the People’s League of Kosovo (PLK – in Albanian Lëvizja Popullore e Kosovës, LPK), told us in Tirana on 14 April 1998 (1).
On 24 and 25 May the targets were the police stations in Gostivar and Skopje’s Albanian quarter, Bit Pazar. Then on 21 July the Budapest-Athens train was struck near the Serbian-Macedonian border. On 28 September, the Macedonian security services (2) arrested four Macedonian Albanians and issued arrest warrants against three others. Of these seven, four are students at the unofficial Albanian university in Tetovo.
In the house used as offices for this university, which was set up illegally on 17 December 1994, a map of Greater Albania hangs on the wall. Apart from Albania and Kosovo, it includes the southern third of Montenegro, the western half of the Republic of Macedonia and part of the Greek provinces of Macedonia and Epirus, from Florina to the gulf of Arta.
http://mondediplo.com/1999/01/13maced
And a foot note to the article
1) From its bases in the “diaspora”, the LPK provides the KLA with its political cadres and its logistics. It dates back to February 1982, when four small Marxist-Leninist groups merged to form the Movement for the Albanian Republic of Yugoslavia in Izmir, Turkey. In 1985, it changed its name to the Movement for the People’s Republic of Kosovo, then, in 1993, to the LPK. In 1997, the LPK founded the Vendlindja Therret (The Homeland Calls) association to collect money for the KLA in some 20 European countries and in North America.
Mr. MacDonald:
At the beginning of this thread, you said (if I correctly recall) that the number of nations recognizing Kosovo’s independence is about the same number as those that recognized Bangladeshi independence after that nation declared itself such; in roughly the same time period after each (Kosovo and Bangladesh) declared independence.
In per capita terms, this isn’t an accurate analogy. The number of nations in the early 1970s was significantly less than the present number.
I’ve intentionally scrolled down to avoid seeing any rehashed half truths and outright lies, which more often than not are off topic insults directed at yours truly by a troll patrol of misfits; who have perverse ways of entertaining themselves.
Sir Ivan
I sincerely want to see people thinking like him to have direct give and takes. This has been noticeably lacking at a good number of the high profile venues.
I’m putting the finishing touches on a piece dealing with former Yugo. It should be due out soon.
Mike
Unfortunately there is too much sugar coating with regards to the Albanian ‘victim’ role. In reality they are the agressors.
If they wanted to achieve political change, they should have done it peacefully, through the ballot box, rather than with the vioent means favoured by the UCK. The bombings of public buildngs and international passenger trains should not be tolareated under any circumstances. Many people died uncessarily.
Those were the very same tactics employed by the UCK in Kosovo that triggered Milosevic’s intervention. Only in Kosovo they were more violent and in greater numbers against civillians, policemen and Albanians with deadly consequences. Many people were killed, or kidnapped and subsequently executed.
Mustafa’s crimes are similarly documented (see here [http://www.decani.yunet.com/testimonies4.html]; scroll down to “Commander Remi”): abductions, murders, bomb attacks against cafés, convenience stores and marketplaces… Among his victims were both Kosovo Serbs and those Albanians who had not joined the KLA. Most significantly, fellow KLA members testified he was responsible for organizing an exodus of some 220,000 Albanians from northern Kosovo (The Guardian, June 30, 1999) during NATO’s assault in 1999. As this demolishes the NATO thesis about Serb “ethnic cleansing” (and thus removes the justification for both the 1999 invasion and the occupation), the absence of these crimes from Remi’s indictment is not surprising.
http://balkanblog.org/2007/11/03/kommandant-remi-rustem-mustafa-the-kla-uck-terrorist-and-murder-in-court/
In early 1987, kicking off his 1988 bid to wrest the GOP nomination from then-vice president George Bush, Dole received $1.2 million from Albanian American supporters in New York City, while DioGuardi received $50,000 at the same dinner. I expect the funding trail goes back further, at least to Dole’s 1976 campaign. It certainly continued from 1987 through to the present.
http://balkanblog.org/2007/11/03/1563/
It’s shameful how they’ve been spoiled Sir Ivan.
This relates to the NATO kangaroo court (ICTY). You look at some of the arrested Serbs and do a reasonable comparison of them to the big three of the KLA. Even some pro-Kosovo independence Albanians have privately stated that those three have definite negative issues.
Del Ponte’s recent revelation is quite damning of the process. Her saying this now as opposed to back when the encounter occurred is typical of when the truth comes out after many either don’t care or have become too fixated on the prior imagery.
Mike
What surpirses me is how is it she can reveal this information now, but could not do so whilst the trial was in progress.
She either deliberately witheld the inforamtion; I suppose despite the process of dicsovery, prosecutors have been known to withhold information from the defence to bolster their case.
Alternatively, she might have been directed not to reveal that ALbanians had kidnapped Serbs for their organs and had them executed after their removal.
Mr. Averko:
“At the beginning of this thread, you said (if I correctly recall) that the number of nations recognizing Kosovo’s independence is about the same number as those that recognized Bangladeshi independence after that nation declared itself such; in roughly the same time period after each (Kosovo and Bangladesh) declared independence.”
70 countries recognized Bangladesh as independent in the space of five months, roughly one dozen a month. So far, in the one and a half months since Kosovo’s declaration of independence, three dozen countries have recognized Kosovo as independent, roughly two dozen a month.
There are 195 countries in the world now, versus 170 countries in October 1989 at the end of the Cold War, so the proportion of countries recognizing Kosovo is significantly higher than the proportion of countries recognizing Bangladesh.
srivanhoe98:
“You are trying very hard to advocate the Albanian position…I hope you get some retainer from them. They pay well.
”
? I’m concerned primarily with the way in which certain populations are misread by others in situations of ethnic conflict. I see this sort of thing in English Canada, where public opinion of Quebec seems to hold the place to be much more ethnically chauvinistic and bigoted than it actually is while seeing English Canadians as rather nicer than they are, or were. (Eugenics were big in English Canada, to name a single example.)
“You know very well it is the diaspora that helped fuel the fire. USA was the recruiting ground for many Albanians heading to Kosovo to fight.”
Yes, entirely. I conceded this point already. Diasporas tend to produce individuals who favour activities and ideologies which aren’t necessarily popular in the homeland.
“Looks like the above are your words. Faculties? Mere words. Law? Which law? Macedonian? Common Law? Well respected university in Pristhina (don’t give me the Albanian spelling)? Respected by whom? Tirana? The European commission that was charged with assessing the quality of the ‘faculties’, ( you are informed so I am certian you know what I am talking about, and I do not have to cite) would not agree with you!!”
I agree with you that there were problems, to a certain extent, and in any case not helped by the Macedonian state’s stupidly obstinate position. Universities frequently play a major role in community identities, and attacking them does a good job of mobilizing communities in opposition to the attackers. In eastern Canada, the Universite de Moncton plays a major role as a community institution for the three hundred thousand Francophone Acadians of the region. If the Universite de Moncton was attacked, stripped of accreditation while its right to exist challenged, there would certainly be a major reaction, in eastern Canada and beyond!
“That is the Albanian line, inflate numbers to give their cause credibility. You do the same quoting as much as 30%.”
30%? That would be much too high. The 2002 census recorded an Albanian population of a half-million people, 25% of the population. That proportion may have risen significantly since then, but I’d be surprised if it reached the 30% mark in only six years. As for 40%, let’s not be joking, please.
On the subject of languages, while Albanian is a minority language in Macedonia it’s also a language that’s used in Macedonia by a large and growing number of Macedonians and also has official language status in several countries apart from Macedonia. Albanians are, after all, indigenous to Macedonia. Why shouldn’t the Albanian language have as much of a place in Macedonia as Albanians themselves?
“All it shows, and you are confirming it, is they cannot tolerate others.”
? It shows that they’re attached to their language and want it to have official status in the country where they live, among other things. It no more necessarily indicates intolerance than it does in Catalonia or Quebec or Estonia.
“Every citizen in Yugoslavia learned the offical language, Serbo/Croatian, but they also learned their native language. Albanians included. So what is wrong with Albanians speaking the officla language of the country in which they now reside?”
They do. What’s wrong with the Albanian language having official status in the country in which Albanians live, and have lived for centuries?
“You are Albanian!!”
No, entirely Irish/Scottish with some English and a tincture of French Acadian from eastern Canada.
“Thy refused to speak or to be educated in the Macedonian language!! And whatever education they got in Tetovo university was useless. How can they be integrated in any official position in businss or in Government if they are not qualified or cannot speak the official language?”
But what if Albanians want access to government institutions, including educational institutions, in their own language? Slovenians and Macedonians did learn Serbo-Croatian, yes, but they also had access to a broad array of republican and federal institutions which actively supported their language. Slovenians and Macedonians together made up 15% of Yugoslavia’s population, versus the Albanian 25%. Even with your low figures of 22.5%, shouldn’t the Albanians of Macedonia receive at least as much consideration?
“In any case, are you suggesting that Macedonia’s offial language should be changed to Albanian because more people in Albania speak Albanian?”
I’d suggest that Albanian should have co-official status alongside Macedonian, if not country-wide then certainly in the municipalities where Albanians live.
“As for the court hearing? If they love Albania and its flag so much, they should go back to Albania!! I would have expelled them to Albania, never to return.”
“Back”? So far as I know these people were born in Macedonia and have as much right to live there as any other Macedonian citizen, including (say) Macedonian citizens who identify themselves as Bulgarians.
At this point I’ll exit the discussion on Macedonia owing to its irrelevance to the topic of Kosovo.
Mr. MacDonald:
How many nations in the early 1970s versus today?
I don’t think there’re many Slavic Macedoninans who view themselves as Bulgarians. Suggesting otherwise is near or on par with telling a self described Ukrainian that he/she is a Russian, or a self described Montenegrin that he/she is a Serb.
If anything, I’m of the impression that per capita wise, more Slavic Macedonians wouldn’t identify with being Bulgarian, relative to the Ukrainian and Montenegrin references. There’re Montenegrins and Ukrainians feeling closely related to their mentioned respective national group. At the same time, there’s no denying the ethnic, religious and linguistic similarities between Slavic Macedonians and Bulgarians.
In Montenegro, a number of folks favor being unified to Serbia. Some predict that a future reunification is possible. In Ukraine there’re many favoring closer ties to Russia. Among that grouping, some aren’t hostile to the idea of reunification with Russia, in a loose union. In Macedonia, I know of no such movement to become affiliated with Bulgaria. I’m curious to know Sir Ivan’s position on this.
Macedonia relates well to this thread because it’s next to Kosovo and faces similar issues.
”In Ukraine there’re many favoring closer ties to Russia. Among that grouping, some aren’t hostile to the idea of reunification with Russia, in a loose union”
Yes. But there are many more Ukrainians who abhor even the idea of such a union. And eating Russian schi rather than Ukrainian:-)
On such matter, Ukraine is mixed. More Ukrainians are fond of Russia than opposing it. Hey, there’re a number of Scots who aren’t fond of the English. On the other hand, some of the biggest British enthusiasts are Scots.
The Ukrainians loathing Russia are a small group. Like some other small groups, they compensate their small numbers by being vocal.
Here’s a link to an excellent panel discussion on Russia, which includes the matter of Kosovo:
http://www.presstv.com/prg_detail.aspx?SectionID=3510510
Jim Jatras touches on how some nations will follow the US position on issues which aren’t so near and dear to them. Jatras adds that American foreign policy isn’t always predicated on what can be reasonably assumed to be in America’s best interests.
Mike asked: “How many nations in the early 1970s versus today?”
By my quick count, there were 131 UN members on 1 Jan 1971. There are 192 UN member states today.
This is based on taking the table on this wikipedia page, sorting the list of current members by joining date in MS Excel (which brings up 124 members by 1/1/71) and adding on the following countries that were members at the time but which are not counted in the table as they are no longer members: Czechoslovakia, North Yemen, South Yemen, Tanganyika, Zanzibar, Yugoslavia and the Republic of China (now Taiwan).
I think I got the adding up right – at most I’ll be out by a few.
These numbers, combined with Randy’s, show that UN members today are recognising Kosovo at a quicker rate than they recognised Bangladesh in the 1970s.
Which, in and of itself, means little – the world today is a much different, less divided place. And in the era of globalisation things usually move a lot faster.
By the way, I’ve forgotten why you were both arguing the point. I was bored though, and felt like doing some political mathematics.
Andy:
Agree that the comparison isn’t in sync with an overall determination on the validity of Kosovo’s independence. I inquired further for clarity sake.
On your point about things moving faster: that can work both ways, which is what can be used to further motivate those opposed to Kosovo’s independence.
I was very impressed with that panel discussion I linked and think you might find it to be of interest; given your acquaintance with one of the panelists.
On other former Communist bloc matter, I plan to positively spice things up in a short bit elsewhere.
”The Ukrainians loathing Russia are a small group. Like some other small groups, they compensate their small numbers by being vocal.”
Nobody said anything whatsover about loathing Russia. But without a doubt the majority of Ukrainians do not want any union of any description with Russia. The borders are open enough as it is and I’m sure they’re fine with that. Ukraine does not belong to Russia.
I tend to agree. There’s a big difference between Ukrainians who are generally positive about Russia, and those who actually want to unify with Rusia.
Ditto, there’s a similar difference between Ukrainians who are generally pro-NATO/EU and those who actually want to join those alliances.
I think most Ukrainians are still happy enough with their new found independence.
I brought up the Ukraine-Russia and Montenegro-Serbia points in reply to Mr. MacDonald’s statement about Bulgarians and perhaps pro-union with Bulgaria sentiment in Macedonia. There doesn’t seem to be anything incorrect with what I brought up on that matter.
Overall, Ukrainian support for NATO membership isn’t as popular as their support for joining the EU. Moreover, polls indicate many Ukrainians favoring closer economic ties to Russia. All this makes perfect sense.
The two newest EU members don’t yet have full membership rights and there’re other countries said to be ahead of Ukraine for EU membership consideration. Those other countries might’ve a bit of a wait. Hence, this can explain in part why many Ukrainians look to their great neighbor who they share much in common with. Some seem to have problems with this sentiment which is quite evident.
Since the Soviet breakup, there has been polling on such issues in different part of Ukraine.
The clear majority of Ukrainians oppose NATO membership.
Should’ve read as: different parts of Ukraine
Andy
Good idea to change the subject. We can go on forever on this. For every example you give I can give a similar one to negate it.
In the end all people have to show good will and tolerance and abide by the rule of law in the state in which they live.
ALbanians can be attached to their language, but making their language official only increases the division, and does little to integrate them within Macedonia.
The Swiss model may be the ultimate solution. You no doubt are aware that in Switzerland the official language is High German. In schools, Swiss children learn in the German language, and from around 1999 they have to also learn the English language.
The Italian side does what it does (remember the bombing of telephone lines in Switzerland in the 1970′s?), as does the French side, but in time they will all speak German and English.
That is roughly what is taking shape in Macedonia. But not sure if it the official line. Macedonians will not learn Albanian, It is of no value. Albanians will not learn Macedonian, perhaps of less value to them, except if they want a job in the Government (Macedonia’s embassy in Vienna has an Albanian who speaks perfect Manedonian, and is a very softly spoken and gentle man) or business.
Most of Macedonia’s post baby boom generation speaks English or German. So maybe the solution is for all to learn a third language and use the informally. Maybe the next generation.
Back on topic
Because Serbs are a minority in Kosovo, Haynes said many live in heavily fortified enclaves. “They were basically unprotected. The Albanian paramilitary attacked them. The most disturbing thing we found out is that after we were on the ground, that’s when the killing of Serbs began and the churches were destroyed. It’s still going on.”
So UNMIK enters Kosovo and killings of Serbs increases.
http://www.juliagorin.com/wordpress/?p=1530
The Great Albania dream lives on. It is up to EU to stop it dead in its tracks.
On the question when would Albania merge with Kosovo, Sletzinger provides a deeper analysis. “When I started working in Congress, this was in the 1970′s, Albanian lobby were giving us maps of Iliria, which included Kosovo, half of Macedonia, a good portion of Montenegro, and of course Albania. I think the Albanians were very wise and, I think it’s natural that they would want to live in one country, just like all Serbs want to live in one country. I don’t know why we would allow a Greater Albania, which will neither be normal, nor more stable than Greater Serbia. Actually it would be very abnormal because it would be created from breaking up several countries. I think this is a process that is going on for years. It’s not true that Kosovo became a country because of Milosevic’s oppresion. This is nonsense. The problems between the Serbs and Albania go on for 100 years.” says Sletzinger.
http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/374/49/
Andy:
By the way, I’ve forgotten why you were both arguing the point. I was bored though, and felt like doing some political mathematics.
I raised the point because it was argued, earlier in the discussion, that the fact that not all of the countries in the world have recognized Kosovo immediately means that Kosovo isn’t going to be recognized generally. I looked to Bangladesh, a country that–like Kosovo–was created as a direct result of foreign militry intervention following guerrilla war against an oppressive central government, and compared the rates at which countries recognized that country following the India’s December 1971 recognition of Bangladeshi independence.
So far, Kosovo has been doing well. It has gained recognition from seven of the eight member-states of the G-8 and eighteen of the 27 member-states of the European Union (including five of the six largest EU member-states). Of the six countries exclusive of Kosov which border Serbia, three (Bulgaria, Croatia, Hungary) have recognized Kosovo, Macedonia has refrained from formal recognition but is negotiating directly with Kosovo on their common frontier, and Montenegro is waiting to follow the EU.
The fact that Canada, which has in Québec a nationalist movement of long-standing that has held two referenda on secession and embraces the idea of unilateral declaration of independences, recognized Kosovo suggests to me that nothing keeps Spain from being too far behind, especially with the elections behind the Socialists. If Spain goes, parts of Latin America may follow, et cetera.
At any rate, Kosovo is in an altogether different class from other UDI entities. Northern Cyprus and Nagorno-Karabakh have each received recognition only from one countries. Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and Transnistria–the subject of the original post–haven’t gotten recognition from anyone. Kosovo’s doing fine; Kostunica’s idea of a revocation of the UDI is just silly.
Mr. Averko:
I wrote, in connection to sirvanhoe98′s suggestion that Albanian nationalists in Macedonia should go back to Albania, that “these people were born in Macedonia and have as much right to live there as any other Macedonian citizen, including (say) Macedonian citizens who identify themselves as Bulgarians.” I grant that there aren’t many members of that second category, although there has been a recent upsurge in the numbers of Macedonians applying for Bulgarian citizenship on the grounds of their ethnic origins in order to access European Union labour markets.
sirvanhoe98:
“ALbanians can be attached to their language, but making their language official only increases the division, and does little to integrate them within Macedonia.
The Swiss model may be the ultimate solution. You no doubt are aware that in Switzerland the official language is High German. In schools, Swiss children learn in the German language, and from around 1999 they have to also learn the English language.
The Italian side does what it does (remember the bombing of telephone lines in Switzerland in the 1970’s?), as does the French side, but in time they will all speak German and English.”
1. If Canada hadn’t made the French language co-official with English in the 1960s, then Canada would be short one province. The same goes for Albanian in Macedonia–chauvinism is a bad thing in any multinational state. Ignoring the wishes of concentrated minority language populations for their language to receive recognition is just plain stupid.
2. Switzerland’s official language isn’t High German or any other form of German. Switzerland has three co-official languages (German, French, Italian) and in Romansh a fourth national language. German is widely taught in Latin Switzerland, but French is widely taught in German Switzerland.
3. Finally, Switzerland has a very decentralized federalism, the cantons administering most things. Language is especially decentralized, with even within cantons being divided into monolingual language areas. The only bilingual communities that I know of are Biel-Bienne and the Jura region of Berne canton, neither area opting to follow the Francophone Catholics of what is now Jura to separate cantonhood on account of their somewhat distinctive cultures.
”Overall, Ukrainian support for NATO membership isn’t as popular as their support for joining the EU.”
Quite what this has to do with the plain fact that the majority of Ukrainians do not favour union of any kind with Russia I simply dont know. People’s preferences for joining such alliances has got nothing whatsoever to do with Russia and Ukraine. Of course Ukraine wants to join the EU, why wouldnt they? Just because Ukrainians shun NATO doesnt for a second mean they want to go back to ‘Kievan Rus’:-)
”The two newest EU members don’t yet have full membership rights and there’re other countries said to be ahead of Ukraine for EU membership consideration.”
I’m quite glad of this fact, to be honest. Ireland’s economy is in a tailspin and Britain’s not far behind, and I think the last thing any of us need, including recovering Germany, is another wave of immigrants from Eastern Europe. I have nothing in principle against them coming, but just not now, when we are teetering a bit. I know a girl who works in our local dole office and she says they are inundated with Poles. Of course, only Ahern and Blair were dumb enough to agree to give them dole in the first place.
On NATO/EU, I was CLEARLY replying to a something Andy said. My stated points on that matter are CORRECT.
In part, Ukrainians aren’t against closer ties to Russia on account of what was said about the sentiment among many in the EU. It’s not just the mentioned Kievan Rus period, but centuries after it, which nurtures the close historical and cultural ties between Russians and many Ukrainians.
Mr. MacDonald:
The point being that the Macedonian yearning to unite or feel akin to Bulgaria doesn’t compare to the two referenced examples I gave.
What you say relates somewhat to how many in the USSR suddenly discovered having Jewish roots after Jackson-Vanik. A very pro-Israeli Jewish attorney I know with the INS chuckles at some of their scripted stories. Some accounts being true and others flat out BS. He said that Albanians have ranked right up there as well. Some of them don’t even update their stories. He still hears of requests based on Enver Hoxhox or the Serbs oppressing them.
At some point, I might triple check the Bangladesh example you mention. Then again, Paikstan-East Pakistan didn’t have a “contiguous” border. I recall your mentioning that issue in suggestive support of belittling Pridnestrovie’s independence claims. I didn’t quite get your point on that one.
Mr. Averko:
The point being that the Macedonian yearning to unite or feel akin to Bulgaria doesn’t compare to the two referenced examples I gave.
What I was saying above was that neither Bulgarophile Macedonian Slavs nor Albanophile Macedonian Albanians can be driven from their homelands on the grounds of their foreign sympathies, both in a moral sense and in a legal sense. Identities tend to be compromised more often than not, especially nowadays.
At some point, I might triple check the Bangladesh example you mention.
I link to some primary sources in my first comment on thwe 17th of March. (Wow, it has been a long thread!)
Then again, Paikstan-East Pakistan didn’t have a “contiguous” border.
No, although Eritrea and Ethiopia do. (Eritrea differs from Kosovo and Bangladesh in that it was able to liberate itself. Such a capable people, but a pity about their leader.)
I recall your mentioning that issue in suggestive support of belittling Pridnestrovie’s independence claims. I didn’t quite get your point on that one.
Regarding continguousness? I don’t remember, to be honest.
A lenghty thread for sure.
I recall your referencing such towards the beginning.
Not having a contiguous border can be used to make a greater claim for independence. Simultaneously, there’re existing precedents showing nations without such borders. US included.
On your brutality reference with Bagladesh: what has gone on in Kosovo doesn’t (from what I know of Bangladesh) come near the carange in the former, of which the Albanians are far from being collectively virtuous; with the Serb side far from being the overwhelmingly negative force.
Hence the need for compromise, as opposed to a completely one sided diktat; which the international community at large isn’t buying. In a number of instances, who gets recognized and who doesn’t comes down to geo-politics. Given the clout of the US in the present, the number of countries opposed to Kosovo’s independence is quite noteworthy.
The Iranian Press TV link I gave didn’t include an exclusive Kosovo feature that network had with Jim Jatras. Note how the network of a predominately Muslim state tagged as fundamentalist is willing to provide earnest coverage, with extended time given to the anti-Kosovo independence view. Something very much lacking at the leading American networks.
Mr. Averko:
On your brutality reference with Bagladesh: what has gone on in Kosovo doesn’t (from what I know of Bangladesh) come near the carange in the former, of which the Albanians are far from being collectively virtuous; with the Serb side far from being the overwhelmingly negative force.
Oppression and violence doesn’t have to be on the scale of Bangladesh–and doesn’t have to be inflicted entirely by one side–to be nasty. The sort of mass violence and apartheid that happened during the 1990s delegitimated Serbian rule in Kosovo. After all, Renan famously concluded that a nation is made up of people who choose to live together. What’s a population group to do when the people who are supposed to be its allies don’t think they have a right to even live there?
Anyway. If, say, Canada responded to a “Yes” majority on Québec independence by sending militias in to kill ten thousand people or so and drive half the Québécois population into New England, I’d say the same thing about Québec’s right to an independent state.
Given the clout of the US in the present, the number of countries opposed to Kosovo’s independence is quite noteworthy.
Not really.
The United States recognized Slovenia in April 1992, ten months after the Slovenian war of independence and three months after the European Union recognized Slovenia. Estonia didn’t get diplomatic recognition until a year after its August 1990 declaration of independence.
It’s normal for countries to take a while to recognize a new country. What’s notable is that nearly all of the countries in Kosovo’s neighbourhood have recognized it, along with nearly all of its most likely partners in Europe, along with most of the world’s richest countries. Universal recognition of Kosovar independence will be a long time coming, but no one is as hostile to Kosovar independence as (say) Maoist China and Kissinger were to Indian-backed Bangladeshi independence. All that Russia has done is voice sympathy, deny the possibility of Russian troop deployments to the Balkans, and take advantage of Kostunica to buy up the Serbian energy infrastructure on most advantageous terms.
So. An independent Kosovo is here to stay.
Note how the network of a predominately Muslim state tagged as fundamentalist is willing to provide earnest coverage, with extended time given to the anti-Kosovo independence view.
Is it really surprising that an Iranian news media is carrying coverage critical of American foreign policy? It’s worth referencing, to be sure, but is that news?
Why don’t you watch it instead of being so incorrect in your assumption?
In addition to other countries, it’s quite noteoworthy that not all EU and OIS countries are going along with the fictitious state of Kosovo, where the Albanians aren’t even calling most of the shots.
There was no “apartheid” in Kosovo in the manner you suggest. If apartheid there has existed, then it has been against the non-Albanian population.
The brutality factor in Kosovo isn’t greater, relative to the not so distant American, Russian and Turkish actions. There’s a current brutality factor in Iraq, care of the 2003 attack against it.
Playing moral superiority against the Serbs is quite flawed to say the least.
UNSCR 1244 is still in effect and kudos to those opposing the EuroAtlantic fascism of arrogantly implemented big power chauvinism.
A warmup for something due out shortly.
Mr. Averko:
In addition to other countries, it’s quite noteoworthy that not all EU and OIS countries are going along with the fictitious state of Kosovo, where the Albanians aren’t even calling most of the shots.
18 of 27 European Union countries, including all six of the European Union’s founding member-states and five of the six largest member-states by population, have recognized Kosovo within the first month and a half of its independence. That’s a good enough record on the European front for me.
As for the OIS, widespread recognition hasn’t happened yet. That’s not the same as saying that there will be no recognition.
For that matter, that’s the problem with all of your arguments on recognition. Even though Kosovo is doing at least as well regarding the rate of recognition as other states created by military conflicts, and better than the other states created through more-or-less peaceful secession, you’ve consistently made the argument that if a country doesn’t recognize Kosovo now it never will, or that if a country opposes Kosovar independence it always will. That’s some sort of fallacy. Slovenia and Estonia are doing nicely as independent states, aren’t they?
There was no “apartheid” in Kosovo in the manner you suggest. If apartheid there has existed, then it has been against the non-Albanian population.
Actually, no. The mass firings of Albanian civil servants and the stripping of Kosovo’s autonomous institutions, placing the province under the control of the military, created the preconditions for the modern situation.
If things were so good in Kosovo for the Albanians, why did they rebel?
The brutality factor in Kosovo isn’t greater, relative to the not so distant American, Russian and Turkish actions.
And?
Playing moral superiority against the Serbs is quite flawed to say the least.
A country whose leadership fights and loses three major ethnic conflicts at the same time that it runs the economy into the ground through massive corruption (Serbia should not be behind Bulgaria) and adopts a violent nationalist policies which discriminate equally against non-ethnics and non-nationalists has very serious issues.
UNSCR 1244 is still in effect and kudos to those opposing the EuroAtlantic fascism of arrogantly implemented big power chauvinism.
Does fascism mean anything anymore?
It’s selectively used in a misrepresentative way. Like the instance of calling the Serb Radical Party such, while sugar coating the repackaged KLA in Pristina.
Your linking Slovenia and Estonia to Kosovo isn’t a good supporting argument for Kosovo’s independence.
Slovenia and Estonia are socioeconomically and politically way better off than crime ridden, socioeconomically downtrodden Kosovo; where the Albanians aren’t really in political power.
All things considered, the EU having as many currently not supporting the recognition of the fictitious state is quite noteworthy. Ditto the number of OIS and other countries.
In point of fact, Albanians en masse were pressured to not “collaborate” with FRY/Serb structures. A good number of the Albanian casualties prior to the NATO bombing were the result of KLA activity against Albanians not seeing things the KLA way. I can’t help but be reminded of how the Croat Ustasha and Galician Ukrainian nationalist OUN/UPA dealt with those in their respective communities who disagreed with them. Topped by how they treated their non-ethnic adversaries. Talk about living in the past.
This thread detailed the increased Albanian nationalist terrorism in Kosovo between 74-89. Selectively giving a start date at a point after the initiated conflict is misleading.
It’s interesting how people spin different conflicts. My cousin’s ex-husband is an Israeli building contractor in Israel. In Israel, I was told that Palestinians have been either laid off or not hired because some Jewish employers fear getting killed. In point of fact, there’ve been such incidents. In America, this particular scenario is met with greater sympathy. This no doubt has to do with a greater understanding of the Israeli position in the US.
It’s not true to portray Kosovo minus Serbia as more tolerant than the rest of Serbia. If anyone should lose the right to govern Kosovo, it’s the repackaged KLA. In point of fact, this is why they’re not really being given much in terms of real political power. A key point in noting the fictitious Kosovo independent state claim. And yes, UNSCR 1244 is still very much pertinent.
During the Cold War, I recall a power accused of willingly using force and violating existing agreements.
Like the instance of calling the Serb Radical Party such, while sugar coating the repackaged KLA in Pristina.
That may be true about the KLA, but the Radicals’ recent warning that, you know, things might happen to Vojvodina Hungarians if Hungary recognized Kosovo says it all. Never mind that Vojislav Seselj is on the record about gouging out the eyes of Croats with rusty spoons.
Your linking Slovenia and Estonia to Kosovo isn’t a good supporting argument for Kosovo’s independence.
As I made clear above, I wasn’t saying that. I was saying that even in best-case scenarios it takes a good long while for countries to gain recognition from anyone, never mind frrom the entire world.
Slovenia and Estonia are socioeconomically and politically way better off than crime ridden, socioeconomically downtrodden Kosovo
For that matter, they’re socioeconomically and politically way better off than crime ridden, socioeconomically downtrodded Serbia. And?
All things considered, the EU having as many currently not supporting the recognition of the fictitious state is quite noteworthy.
18 member-states recognize Kosovo, 9 do not. 18 out of 27 is two-thirds, not one half.
This thread detailed the increased Albanian nationalist terrorism in Kosovo between 74-89. Selectively giving a start date at a point after the initiated conflict is misleading.
This thread isn’t demonstrating that there was terrorism as opposed to the sort of low-level hostility you’d expect in an increasingly poor province marked by strong ethnic conflict.
Serbia minus Kosovo is much better off than Kosovo.
Despite the hypocritically warped sanctions and bombing against it, Serbia’s economy isn’t so bad when compared relative to the two newest EU members.
Estonia was never so historically and demographically related to Russia, Poland and Germany as Kosovo to Serbia. It’d be nice if Estonia and Latvia showed the same respect for the multi-lingual desire of many as Pridnestrovie.
Slovenia and Slovakia were former republics of nations. On the other hand, Kosovo was part of a republic.
Many territories have received rather quick international recognition as nations. For good reasons, the majority of nations don’t support Kosovo’s independence.
And yes, UNSCR 1244 is still valid.
This thread has firmly established an Albanian nationalist terrorism issue in conjunction with exaggerated claims made about Serb activity against it.
Serbia minus Kosovo is much better off than Kosovo.
True, but that’s not the point at hand. As Statistics Norway points out, Serbia and Montenegro come close to the GDP per capita of Bulgaria, but still fall short. This is an immense issue given that, circa 1990, Serbia was the core of one of the wealthiest units of a Yugoslavia strongly integrated with world and European markets.
Serbia shouldn’t bear comparison with Bulgaria; it should bear comparison with Hungary.
Estonia was never so historically and demographically related to Russia, Poland and Germany as Kosovo to Serbia.
That’s true for Poland, but not at all true for the Russia that ruled Estonia for two centuries before the October Revolution, or for the very significant number of ethnic Germans who ruled Estonia (with Latvia) for centuries.
It’d be nice if Estonia and Latvia showed the same respect for the multi-lingual desire of many as Pridnestrovie.
They should ban Cyrillic-script Russian-language schools and recruit the US Army to crush in incipient separatists in Narva and Daugavpils?
Slovenia and Slovakia were former republics of nations. On the other hand, Kosovo was part of a republic.
It was, but by the 1970s and 1980s it was a federal unit co-equal with the seven others–Kosovo provided heads of the collective presidency just like the others–and it is a discrete territorial unit.
Many territories have received rather quick international recognition as nations. For good reasons, the majority of nations don’t support Kosovo’s independence.
With the exception of Czechoslovakia’s successor states, countries since the Cold War have been quite reluctant to recognize new countries, especially ones produced by unilateral declarations of independence. Yugoslavia’s republics famously had that problem; the former Soviet republics had that problem; the various unrecognized and foreign-supported self-proclaimed independent states across southeastern and eastern Europe have that problem.
Kosovo hasn’t. Most of the countries in its immediate neighbourhood, most of the countries in its continent, and major extra-regional powers like the United States, Canada, Japan, and South Korea have recognized it. It no longer belongs in the category of unrecognized self-proclaimed indepent states. It’s now a country, its inhabitants free from oppression by Serbians who frequently believe that Albanians have no roots there and no right to live there. It’s not perfect, but what are you going to do on this fallen world?
Hmmm.
Not how I recall the recognitions of some of those states.
You recall how the Vatican and Germany pushed for Slovenia’s and Croatia’s recgnition.
In 1992, Croatia, Slovenia and the Baltics were in the IOC and UN. Offhand, wasn’t that also true of Slovakia and the Czech Republic?
Miloseivc era Yugoslavia recognized Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia and Bosnia.
Estonia was never as closely akin to Russia as Kosovo’s relationship with Serbia.
During the Soviet era, Hungary had the best standrad of living among Warsaw Pact nations. At the same time, Serbia lagged behind Slovenia and Croatia.
Albanians have Albania in addition to being able to live in other areas of the Balkans and elsewhere.
It’s the Serb position on Kosovo, which has been the more disrespected.
Mr. Averko:
In 1992, Croatia, Slovenia and the Baltics were in the IOC and UN.
Two years after the Baltics declared independence, one year after Croatia and Slovenia declared independence.
Offhand, wasn’t that also true of Slovakia and the Czech Republic?
Czechoslovais’ division occurred on 1 January 1993, but the groundwork for that was laid in the summer of 1992.
Miloseivc era Yugoslavia recognized Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia and Bosnia.
And?
Estonia was never as closely akin to Russia as Kosovo’s relationship with Serbia.
For two centuries, control over Estonia was a vital task for Russia. Take the domain of strategy: If not for Russian control of Estonia, then Sweden would have continued to threat the site that Tsar Peter the Great had chosen for Russia’s new national capital. More, many Estonians saw themselves tightly bound up, the Estonian migration to the Caucasus or the conversino of a fifth of the ethnic Estonian population to Orthodox Christianity against the Baltic Germans.
During the Soviet era, Hungary had the best standrad of living among Warsaw Pact nations. At the same time, Serbia lagged behind Slovenia and Croatia.
This awkwardly formatted World Bank paper, GDP per capita in 1989 was $2460 in Hungary and $2680 in Yugoslavia.
How would this translate into the Serbian context? I honestly don’t know for certain. This Canadian government briefing starts with a higher GDP per capita of $5 434 in 1991 and claims that Vojvodina’s GDP per capita is $6 949 and Serbia proper’s is $4 870. This seems to reflect what I know about regional economic disparities in Yugoslavia.
If the previous regional economic balances had carried through, Vojvodina should be one-third richer than Hungary on a GDP per capita basis and inner Serbia would be on par with Hungary. Serbia’s economy could easily be twice the size that it is now. With a well-educated history and a long integration with western Europe, all of Yugoslavia could easily have outperformed most of the post-Communist countries of central Europe.
Instead, Serbia is lagging Bulgaria. Serbia’s leaders have sorely failed their country.
Albanians have Albania in addition to being able to live in other areas of the Balkans and elsewhere.
“Serbs have Serbia in addition to being able to live in other areas of the Balkans and elsewhere.”
There’s a question. Do you believe that the Republika Srpska has a right to secede from Bosnia-Herzegovina? If so, do you think that Kosovo has the same right? If not, why not? (Note that Kosovo has been two-thirds Albanian since before the First World War while RS’ slight Serb majority was created by kicking out half of the population.)
Mr. MacDonald;
Do you actaully believe that Kosovo’s independence recognition by the UN will come sooner?
Not likely to happen given the mentioned circumstances.
Those other lands were able to get mutually agreed understandings.
The differences over Kosovo remain much more pronounced.
If Kosovo has a right to independence, than so should RS.
I’ve suggested that both become full UN and IOC members, while remaining loosely affiliated with their existing entities.
I’m aware of Russian history in the Baltics, having studied it and having familial ties there.
The overall Russian demographic and historical realtionship in the Baltics doesn’t compare to Serb ties with Kosovo.
This explains why a number of analysts in the late 1980s predicted Soviet and Russian recognition of the Baltics as independent. Even most of the Slavs in the Baltics desired such; only to be shit on in Latvia and Estonia after those republics became independent.
Interesting economic stats for that period. It should also include Serbia minus Kosovo, Serbia with Kosovo and Kosovo and Albania.
Anyway. If, say, Canada responded to a “Yes” majority on Québec independence by sending militias in to kill ten thousand people or so and drive half the Québécois population into New England, I’d say the same thing about Québec’s right to an independent state.
This is absolutely correct. Serbia lost the right to govern its minority Kosovars once it failed in its duty to protect them from harm, and indeed went so far as inflicting the harm.
Mr. Averko: Do you actaully believe that Kosovo’s independence recognition by the UN will come sooner?
Sooner than … ?
It took three years for Bangladesh to get into the United Nations. Why can’t it take as long for Kosovo?
Those other lands were able to get mutually agreed understandings.
Slovenia’s independence was mutually agreed upon? I seem to recall a minor war of independence back in June 1991.
Interesting economic stats for that period. It should also include Serbia minus Kosovo, Serbia with Kosovo and Kosovo and Albania.
We’ve already been over Kosovo and Albania upthread. The Canaidan government commentary is good.
http://www.csis-scrs.gc.ca/en/publications/commentary/com16.asp
“Since the Second World War, Yugoslavia has made a relatively successful transition from an agricultural to an industrial economy. Just before the current troubles began, manufacturing and mining, for example, accounted for 44% of total output, compared to 14% for agriculture and fishing. Estimated average GNP per capita was (US) $5,434, modest by European Community standards, but good in comparison to many other non-aligned countries.
Concealed in this average, however, was a gross disparity in wealth between the eight political units comprising Yugoslavia as defined in the 1974 constitution. Slovenia enjoyed a per capita GNP of $12,618, close to that of its prosperous neighbour Austria, with Croatia a distant second at $7,179 and Vojvodina third at $6,949. At the other end of the scale, the per capita annual GNP for Kosovo was only $1,302, while those of Bosnia-Hercegovina, Macedonia and Montenegro were each less than $4,000. Serbia, at $4,870, was just under the Yugoslav average.”
“This is absolutely correct. Serbia lost the right to govern its minority Kosovars once it failed in its duty to protect them from harm, and indeed went so far as inflicting the harm.”
****
This keeps getting repeated while ignoring greater examples of harm done to others elsewhere. In those mentioned instances, territory wasn’t taken away. Once again, the Albanian side is far from being virtuous.
UNSCR 1244 also contradicts the above quoted.
Mr. MacDonald:
As the not so Serb friendly late Warren Zimmerman observed, Slovenia started that brief war.
How are nations admitted into the UN?
Based on that answer, how do you reasonably expect Kosovo to get admitted into the UN within the next 2-3 years?
The only likely way I see this happening is under the Soviet era Byelorssian and Ukrainian precedent, of part of a nation being in the UN, with the whole of that nation (USSR) represented as well.
Mr. MacDonald:
Following up on the UN matter, look how long it took for the PRC to get into the UN. During that period, the PRC was a far more legitimate state than Kosovo. There was no foreign force holding authority there.
All it takes is for one vote in the negative at the UNSC.
Mike, I think you’re probably right that it will take a while for Kosovo to be accepted into the UN – while Russia and Serbia are opposed, it will certainly not happen.
But, eventually, they will have to accept the inevitability of Kosovan membership – probably it will become a (written or unwritten) condition of EU membership for Serbia. Once Serbia makes the decision to recognise Kosovo, Russia will of course follow.
On the Belarussian/Ukrainian example of members of federations having seats – I think this model is pretty discredited at the moment. Having said that, if (as?)the EU becomes more unifed & federated, feelings about this issue could swing back the other way somewhat.